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When Chinese go to Africa and call Africans their brothers , some are up in arms pointing out to Africans that Chinese are merely angling for their resources. When Chinese have differences with teachers from Africa, the same people rush and sandwich themselves between the two, making clever arguments about the buyer choosing what they want. So why not just allow Africa appreciate Chinese involvement in Africa in their own account. China has been complaining about the general proficiency of students, yet we have this holier than not claim that native speakers would play the magic. When China trade with Africa, you complain , when Africans want to work for Chinese you rush to counter every utterance they make. Why should you be the ones to be making apologies for the Chinese just because you want to get the jobs. In the US you say blacks are lazy, in Africa you ask blacks not to welcome the Chinese, in China you say blacks should not be given jobs because they are not native speakers, so what do you want people to call you, trickster? If you think Chinese parents would know who is good for their children , why are you so defensive about it? When a section of foreigners have differences about things that affect their livelihood in China, it's better for you to maintain an understandable distance, not talking under their voices, struggling too hard to show false modesty and craving for sympathy from the Chinese. Blacks did not say others don't face discrimination, they are raising a valid point, that somebody's complexion has nothing to do with his competence. The song about accent is pure escapism.
Jun 03, 2016 01:14 Report Abuse
Not at all, you were rambling about China's investment in some countries and harped about the fact that Chinese investment in Africa is negligible as compared to that of those countries. Your inference is that people from those countries need not raise their voices. This is supported by the fact that you claim China make deals with those European countries for their citizens to work in China. Can China not also make deals with African countries for their citizens to work in China? It's a good thing the Chinese gov't has made the decision that degrees should come from western country. All the indians, Pakistanis, blacks and other minorities who had their degres from western countries will be on the same footing with everyone. We may finally cease seeing some people raping women in the streets of Beijing because of their sense of entitlement.
Jun 03, 2016 12:15 Report Abuse
Whoa. You think that native speakers rape women in Beijing because they have an over-inflated sense of entitlement? That's a hell of a chip you've got on your shoulder there buddy. I'm not sure what country you come from but calling a whole group of countries rapists isn't good manners. I can't imagine that there are that many people from India, Pakistan or Africa who hold degrees from Western countries. Good luck to them if they want to come to China. Don't forget to tell them not to rape people, it's valuable advice.
Jun 03, 2016 14:17 Report Abuse
You're talking BS mate and what you're saying doesn't reflect on what was said or the world at all. You see everything as a race issue when it isn't. Economy has a much bigger play in all this. Think about it seriously... Without claiming everything is racism. Which I know may be hard for you to do. Who said they don't make deals with those countries? Not everything is about race. Hence why a Ghanaian or a Nigerian can get visas to the UK easier than Congolese or Somalians. As a British Citizen I have the right to travel to 175 countries visa free. Britain is ranked as number 1 in the world for freedom of travel the US is number 4. It's worth noting that both Germany and Sweden have more visa free countries than Britain but they also are exempt from certain visas which are common for British and Americans such as non-native english teacher visas. Essential no one has as much freedom of travel as a British person. This is because of several things. We're a member of the EU (currently). We are a member of the commonwealth. We have a stable economy. And then there's also that shady business of the british empire... Most of the reason really is economy though. If you look at the countries with the highest level of freedom of travel and those with the least you will find that those at the top are the countries with the highest GDP's in the world and those at the bottom are those with the worst. A lot are African countries but not all. As was previously said and agreed there is definitely racism in China and it is present in the ESL industry. However a company refusing to hire or even look at an African from a non-native country is NOT racism! If they know full well that they will not be able to get a legal visa for that person then all they are guilty of is following the laws of their country. Which is absolutely right of them. The issue is when native black people are being refused jobs because of their skin colour. That IS racism. By lieng and claiming that you are American or British etc you are further adding to this issue. Schools and students will start to think that all black people are African. Which sadly a lot already do think. So, why is China making their visa laws stricter against non native speaker? It's simple... China doesn't want you. China a country that has been trying desperately to shrink their population and has only recently changed to a policy that will keep it steady does NOT want a population boom from immigrants. People move to foreign countries to find opportunities and improve their lives. People from high GDP countries don't need to do this. This is why they have such visa freedom. Whereas those from low GDP do need to. Hence why they don't have visa freedom. Raising your voices for a just cause such as genuine racism is completely admirable and I fully support it. However you don't seem to know when something is actually racism or not. Somebody being refused a job because of the inability to get a visa is not racism. Refusing certain countries visas is also not racism. Especially when they offer visas to countries where black people are majorities. Such as South Africa for example. So raising your voice in anger over such things isn't admirable is just embarrassing. One final point. Reading your comments and the others made yours are the only ones that could be construed as being racist. Making statements such as "people raping women in the streets of Beijing because of their sense of entitlement". Is racial stereotyping. I have no idea if there has been rapes in the street as you say but if they have happened it has happened by a select few people. And those who have a sense of entitlement are the minority not the majority.
Jun 03, 2016 15:15 Report Abuse
You think you know how to bandy words in a deceptive way? I said " some" people and not " a whole group of people"! Grow up and quit being an apologist. Who hired your services to pretend to crave what the Chinese gov't has in store for whoever? Now we have moved from accent to parroting cheap talking points about degrees from western countries. We all know there are regional varieties of English. What if an Indian who grew up in India but had his degree in a western gets recruited n China, how would you make excuses about his Indian accent? Whether there are many people from minorities coming to teach in China or not, it is none of your businesses, be contented, so stop parroting cheap talking points here.
Jun 03, 2016 15:44 Report Abuse
Jack, the BS us rather that long winding thesis you have written. If you can travel to 175 countries because of the economy, an African can also lay claim of the resources and physical cash swindled from their countries and which end up propping up western economies. The Nigerian president challenged your PM about the lip service you people pay about democracy and transparency, but receive dirty money from dictators in Africa. If it is the economy then Africans should be enjoying more preferential treatment from China now because of their partnership and the win win situation between the two. Africans do not therefore need weak knee apologists like you to scare them about what ever decisions the Chinese gov't might take. It's not your place to make these apologies. Be contented with travelling to as many countries as is permitted without trying to sandwich yourself between Chinese and Africans. Chinese don't want Africans, but when the same Chinese go over to Africa to meet them there , you strangely become very friendly to these Africans, telling them Chinese have come to wipe out their resources. Some of you are not for your natural disposition to grab what is not yours. You have now transformed China into another turf to perennise your racist attitude. You are only worried because you want to protect your own bread, else you have nothing lecture about the decisions of the Chinese gov't. Immediately you people discovered that there was money to make in teaching here, you went into an overdrive, throwing banana skins. Blacks, Africans and other minorities will continue to work with the Chinese in the teaching industry and other industries as long as China exists. Your false modesty is as ridiculous as the opium your country introduced into China. You shouldn't be the ones falling over yourselves about the decisions of the same gov'ts you routinely ridicule on this forum. Yeah, there has been rape on the streets of Beijing by a British citizen, take that and desist from being a moral Ayatollah!
Jun 03, 2016 16:16 Report Abuse
You're right it was a long winded reply. I was just intrigued by some of the comments made so decided to use google to fact check. BTW you can do that you know. Just type it in your search engine you will find it. Firstly I never voted my 'PM' into power. I've never voted for the conservatives and I never will. Secondly you keep saying 'you' as if I am my entire country and I have control over my government. The only thing I am apologising for is talking to a bigot like you. An ignorant one at that. You don't even read the words in front of you. Most of the crap you are spilling has nothing to do with the actual conversation at hand. Thirdly money to be made in teaching here? Are you mad? The average wage for a teacher in China is lower than the minimum wage in Britain. People are not coming here to teach to make money. I've never said anything against minorities. Actually when I first came to China I came with my best friend who is a British Sri Lankan and we both did the same job for the same pay. He is currently teaching English and is happy. I don't teach English. He's British and is LEGALLY employed. Finally a British person has raped someone? How does this have anything to do with me? Are you telling me that people from your country have never raped people or murdered people. It doesn't matter anyway. I'm not a nationalist I don't believe that my country defines me. Nor my race for that matter. Sure they have influences on my personality but they are not me. Also did you edit your last post that I replied to? Honest question as I can't tell but have my suspicions.
Jun 03, 2016 16:42 Report Abuse
Firefighter. In the same breath you criticise people for their countries previous misdeeds, clearly wanting some weird ass apology which isn't ours to make, and then accuse people of being apologists. Furthermore you're seeing racism when there is none and fighting this imaginary racism by being racist. You're a walking talking hypocrite man!
Jun 03, 2016 17:08 Report Abuse
The fact that you never voted for your PM doesn't change the fact that he is your leader. Yeah, I keep saying you and I stand by it. I hope after this debate you will learn one thing and that thing is what we call Royal " you" or " we", when you don't want to limit what you are referring to to yourself or someone else, but to a larger audience. You don't need to apologise because you are too carried away in running down others. Nobody from your country should be holier enough to coach the Chinese on what to do to whoever. You come from England, don't? You are supposed to have a good grasp of English! When you tell me that teachers don't come here to make money, only to contradict yourself that your Sri Lankan friend is legally employed as a teacher, what do you want me to call you, a slow leaner? If the peanuts teachers earn in China are nothing to you the British, you won't be so worked up coaching Chinese on how to keep out others and give you a free reign! Your country surely defines you, that why you brought up the idea that yourcountryand few others have more investments in China and that they make deals for China to employ people like you. Since you have poor understanding of English, this entails you are riding on the coat tails of your country. How would you therefore want to run away from your shadow?
Jun 03, 2016 22:31 Report Abuse
Reminding you of the inadequacies of your country has nothing to do with soliciting an apology. It is a legitimate answer to someone who thinks that his country has more investment in China than others, people should not make their reservations known. You are apologists because you seem to take delight when you celebrate the fact that the Chinese gov't will soon come out with a law that will warrant people to have degrees from western countries. As foreigners, what is your beef when another foreigner raises a legitimate point? You want to shout him down, right ? Get this clearly, Africans have outlived slavery, colonialism and neo-colonialism, you think it's barring them from teaching jobs that will finally please you people? Give people break! Keep up with your false modesty and passive racist tendencies!
Jun 03, 2016 22:43 Report Abuse
I'm not accountable for other people's actions. It really is as simple as that. You're not using the words "you", "we" or "some" in the way that you claim. I never professed to be almighty in my knowledge of English. Actually I've spent most of my life not living in the UK so I don't see how it defines me at all. How is it a contradiction to say a simple truth that the average wage of a teacher in China is actually less than minimum wage in Britain. Again as I have pointed out before you can actually check that, google is a wonderful thing. It's not an obsession with money and that's what you don't seem to understand. It's about improving your life. Whether that is through experiences or surroundings. That's why most of the English teachers in China are actually just backpackers trying to use China as a base to travel around Asia. My Sri Lankan friend owns three houses in the UK. He doesn't have an issue with money. Minority doesn't mean poor! I never brought up those facts I merely added to those mentioned by others. I fed you with facts because you don't understand how this world works. Also let me make this clear Europeans have outlived slavery, colonialism and neo-colonialism. Shit the British Empire had ceased to exist before I was even born. Most of it was gone before my Dad was even born. It was being broken up when my Granddad was a child. You're talking about wrongs committed 4 to 5 generations ago by people who have nothing to do with me and expect me to take responsibility for their wrongs. I couldn't give a flying if you want to fight for those shitty English teaching jobs. I don't even teach English. All I was trying to do was to make you understand why these laws exist. If you want to come to this country then you need to abide by their laws. Stop all your cheating and lying to get illegal visas and work illegally. Follow their laws. It really is a simple as that. Now sure complain about things and fight for things. But do it legally.
Jun 04, 2016 03:02 Report Abuse
Why should I be splitting hair about the average wage of somebody in Britain? Thank you for acknowledging that you come here to earn money and improve yourself, but I never accused you of being obsessed about money. Why therefore are you belabouring this point? Your Sri Lankan friend is in China for money, short and simple! You know how to take inventory of problems committed by blacks, but too scared to accept those committed by your ancestors. If your ancestor steals from me to prop you up, you would benefit from it your whole life. Slavery was meant to prop you up, build your societies and you people are reaping the fruits today. You therefore have not moral lessons to give anyone. If you were not fighting for shitty English jobs, you won't be giving examples of your friends earning money through teaching. Money is money, whether earned to better your life or whatever. You have no right to second-guess anyone who wants to teach or not. You want to make me understand why these laws exist? On your capacity as who? Do I not have the intellectual prowess to see what the gov't has been and is still doing? It is you the foreigner who is giving lessons on how to abide by the laws in China. When you country introduced opium into China, what have you to say about it? Your countryman raped a woman in Beijing, another carried drugs into China and was put to death, are those not enough problems from your own ilk you should be waxing strong about? You seem to cherry-pick those you think work here illegally, why not highlight the serious problem of British always pulling off high drug and other moral issues in China? You think illegal teachers are worst than the introduction of opium into China in the eyes of the Chinese? " Follow their laws"! If you were this sanctimonious, you would have given this advice to your countryman who raped a woman in the streets of Beijing! Where were you? You are now dying over small teaching jobs? You and you ilk really know how to do things legally, like raping women, bringing in drugs and pretending to be mentally unstable. You have a very bad vibe in this China if you never knew. Trying to seek for notice from Chinese is stupidity with comedic proportions!
Jun 04, 2016 13:02 Report Abuse
I've grown weary of this conversation so I will try not to keep feeding you. However I need to clarify a couple of things and then I am done. I hope... The only reason I mentioned my friend was because you believe that I am against minorities having jobs. My friend is actually British but as British to you means white I thought I needed to tell you where he is descended from. He's never been to Sri Lanka, doesn't speak a word of singelese or tamal and is thoroughly western. I've already said this but I will say it again he is shockingly wealthy he is not teaching English because of the money. Reread some of the things you have written and you will see that you contradict yourself constantly. For example "You have no right to second-guess anyone who wants to teach or not." < Remember you accused white men coming to China to make large sums of money teaching. Remember what you just said about my friend. I never assumed that you weren't intelligent enough to understand Chinese laws. If I did I wouldn't have pointed them out to you. I don't need a capacity as anything to point at real facts. Saying something is something when it is that thing is a reasonable thing to do. Let me keep reminding you. When my country introduced opium to China. I was not alive, neither were you or any Chinese person. No one alive today could have changed what happened then. The same goes to slavery. I was born in my country. I didn't choose to be born there, I didn't choose to be white. I had no control over any of it. In regards to the drugs, I have to agree that drugs in the UK are a serious issue. However it's also an issue in African nations too. There have been British smugglers bringing drugs to China but there has been a huge amount of Nigerian smugglers too. I ask you and the author of this article to follow the law. I also ask British people to follow the law too. If I knew the "countryman" who apparently raped somebody I would have told him to follow the law as well.
Jun 05, 2016 19:23 Report Abuse
@Guest14341422. I apologise for what I said. I wasn't meaning to insinuate that people from the sub-continent were rapists but I can see how you could read that from my comment. I was trying to make fun of Firefighter because he said that all white foreigners were rapists . I have a lot of respect for Indian and Pakistani people and I'm sorry if my comment caused offence.
Jun 06, 2016 09:53 Report Abuse
"Slavery was meant to prop you up, build your societies and you people are reaping the fruits today." That's not true at all. If you look at every country in this world you will see a significant boost in their economy when they abolished slavery. The UK, USA, France etc all grew as powers after slavery. This is because slavery was never meant to prop up nations it was meant to prop up the aristocracy and the bourgeoisie. Britain and the Netherlands had a sudden surge in the world after their own civil wars or wars of independence. The result of these wars was a lessening of the powers of their aristocracy. They went from full monarchies to constitutional monarchy. This gave more power to the middle class who then started a process of industrialization. These nations went from weak nations to world powers because of this. The average man never benefited from slavery. If you look at the USA when they abolished slavery the African American former slaves started migrating north to work for the newly developing industry. This created a boom and withing decades the US's wealth was twice as much as it was during slavery. Slavery did not prop up any of these nations. Actually it held them back. While slavery existed innovation was slow. Slaves weren't allowed an education and slave owners didn't feel the need to invest in new technologies as they felt they got what they needed from their slaves.
Jun 07, 2016 18:13 Report Abuse
The slaves first worked for the bougeosie and then moved north to look for work. Yeah, those were the best of African able bodied men and women working for your societies. The bougeosie were your ancestors, what are you going to do to cast off this fact? The past down palaces to you like the Palace of Versailles. They used slaves to build infrastructure that is enriching you today. The White House, Capitol Hill, you name them! You cannot only cherry pick the good things about your history, and reject the bad ones, like what your ancestors the aristocrats did. What the aristocrats did is only slightly different from what is done today because there no overt slavery, but what is going on with issuing visas to people to come and pick fruits and do other jobs you refuse to do is still modern slavery. I know you will twist like a snake because you hate the truth, but there's no reason why one percent of the population in the industrialised world keeps the world's riches with it. Another problem is the dishonesty of the so called developed world. It continues to receive billions from corrupt African leaders and this money is used to develop their own societies. Of course you will blame the dictators, but the moralists you pretend to be should know better. You still pall around with thieves against the African people right up to today. I don't think people from such places have any moral lessons to give anyone.
Jun 09, 2016 17:17 Report Abuse
Guess what? Nabokov was not a native speaker and sold many more books than most native speakers ever will. Henry Kissinger will get paid just to speak much more than most native speakers ever will. Furthermore, the lexical range of English after the Middle English period owes a lot to the contributions of non-native speakers and translators importing ideas and words from other languages. A non-native will often improve the language he learns if he is a man of intelectual abilities. Discrimination against non-native speakers or against non-natives as such is accent-racism. "Accent" has nothing to do with bad pronunciation but with voice qualities that bear no relevance to the aural identification of the phonemic oppostions a language is first built around. That accent-racism is, characteristically, the recourse of those native speakers who either engage in a form of trade barrier under a false pretense or who try to compensate their subconscious feelings of inferiority, as they have no authentic accomplishments and couldn't get a decent job back home.
Jun 02, 2016 12:28 Report Abuse
It isn't the native speakers that indulge in said "accent racism" that are to blame for the situation at hand, it is Chinese parents and Chinese society. China is a rat race and parents fight tooth and nail to give their offspring any possible perceived advantage in the world of education. A teacher with an accent from a country that is not USA,UK, et al is seen as a distinct disadvantage by Chinese parents. They may be wrong but they are the customers and they will do with their money as they wish. Good luck if you wish to change opinions but it's a fool's errand. I agree that a good teacher is a good teacher, irrespective of accent, but convincing China of such a thing is easier said than done.
Jun 02, 2016 14:01 Report Abuse
Most Chinese as well as many native speakers do discriminate against non-native speakers in various ways that may or may no be fair depending on other factors to be taken into account. What should be here noticed though is that, within the educational market, both of the aforementioned social groups reinforce each other's views through the exchange of stereotypes, prejudice, and misconceptions. Whether the prevailing public opinion can be changed or not is a different issue altogether. However, a good teacher with a sound -say- European education may be perceived, in the right setting only perhaps, as having much more to offer in terms of vocabulary, range and scope of expression, and sound general and fundamental educational prowess. Where I teach, they got rid already of an American lawyer, a British accountant, and others but they kept the non-native... Will cases like this, eventually, change the public opinion in China? May be. China is evolving and they can judge by themselves -once they are given facts to face- better than you assume. After all, stereotypes and general preconceptions are nothing but a cognitive device useful for lack of more information on a case by case basis or for a temporary lack of a more elaborate criteria.
Jun 02, 2016 19:48 Report Abuse
Do you still live in Jinan, "shangguanruien?" Are you still perusing BestGore.com while you hide from all the, what did you call them, "spyx and kneegrows?" Here's our favorite ESL troll, shanguanruien's post on Topix.com: http://www.topix.com/forum/food/T54LM4AJ3FU839R4B - He's post #2... It's short, but very revealing... P.S. shang', if you're going to be a racist PERVERT, you might wanna change your screenname. It's kind of distinctive. :S
Jun 02, 2016 09:47 Report Abuse