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PLEASE, MR/MS. GUEST 7816 - Later I will address the two points you make above . . . but first, I will ask, please do me the favor of truly reading my comments and reply directly to the points I will make. And try to have a bit of patience . . . as I have said in previous posts - it takes a lot of words to make a simple point in our world today because we tend to focus on what makes us different rather than what makes us the same. In many ways this is a result of Culture as a commodity, as a product. And I think it is important to again remind all us foreigners: we are here in China as part of China's opening up and reform policy, China's policy of "learning from the West"; which, in essence, places all western foreigners in the position of "blind man's advocate." I can understand that the Chinese miss my points . . . because they are not familiar with the CONCEPT OF RULE BY LAW. But I find it a bit frustrating that westerners seem to forget our role in China, and they too seem to get sidetracked by details of individual incidents. Of course we can't all be teachers all the time. Byt we must remember that we teach by example - I am simply using the tools that my education and life have provided me, so as to do my part to uphld my responsibility to that Cinese policy of learning from the West, of learning from thegood lessons that my Mom and Dad me, and your Mom and Dad taught you. But, dear Mr./MS, I am not on a crusade . . . I am simply trying to do my best to uphold my responsibility to the people who have invited me to their country: the stated position of the National Chinese Government remains that all foreign nationals and businesses are here in China as part of China's development program. It is only a happy coincidence that, for most of us, our personal goals, career, and life choices coincide with China's 'use' for foreigners. If you take a moment, GUEST 7816, you will see that it is actually I who am speaking about the simple facts of our invitation to come live in China - the best thinkers in China want us foreigners to try, using patience (and sometimes necessarily long-winded posts :) so as to help the Chinese understand modern, international, and universalized CONEPT such as RULE BY LAW.
Jan 24, 2013 20:09 Report Abuse
I WILL GIVE YOU MY BEST EFFORT AT sympathizing with Mr Hale - BUT PLEASE REMEMBER, what I spea of here is aside from what I might now think of him as a result of all the gossip and 'laundry airing' that has clouded the details of his crimianl activity - which is all I wish to speak of. To continue, Mr. Hale, got everything backwards, even if he was intending to be a "blind man's advocate." It is very easy to see this: In essence Mr. Hale used his own culture as an excuse for acting in an un-cultured manner. He is a western foreigner, and I assuming (I don't knwo the man); thus, he was brought up in a society that respects the RULE OF LAW . . . and so he was frustrated by the lack of RULE by LAW in China . . . but, in a contradictory manner, he ignored the existing laws (though they are not empowered by the RULE OF LAW) in China when he acted, if he indeed did, as a "blind man's advocate" for the RULE OF LAW. Driven by his own personal experience with the RULE OF LAW he forgot himself (or maybe he is the crazy man people have described), forgot himself in a country that does not accept the RULE OF LAW; thus, thereby, jumping in and out of his onw logic and feelings about THE RULE OF LAW -- in essence, he allowed his own cultural value for RULE OF LAW to caus him to act in an un-cultured manner.
Jan 24, 2013 20:16 Report Abuse
Now, my points have been very simple: GUEST 7816 wrote: "1) we are talking about James Hale as an individual and his individual situation, and 2), we are talking about how this affects so many in the China community as related to Mr. Hale and his deed(s)." As to your first point - for me, the fact that folks speak about Mr. Hale individual personality and life-style/choices creates a situation where people become divided, the discussion becomes political, any word said in sympathy for Mr. Hale's frustration is seen as equivalent to supporting his actions, and the language becomes heated (a bit like 'airing dirty laundry' ): female posters writing about how Mr. Hale invited them home to his apartment; folks speaking about what, to my ear, sound like completely un-related speculations and observations about Mr. Hale's personality and other life choices. The entire matter devolve into "trail by media." Is this acceptable in a country that is trying to modernize and isn't it my duty, as a westerner invited to China as part of China's "learn from the west", thqt I do what I can to promote the RULE OF LAW . . . but not allowing myself to act in the same manner as Mr. Hale. And sir/madam, are you not being horribly disrespectful of all the effort I have put forward here and in law classes I have taught at universities when you suggest I am on a crusade. ANd Sir/Madam, aren't you being very blind to the concerted effort of the best CHinese thinkers who wish to empower RULE OF LAW in China. The folks, commenting here, are Chinese netizens - a large portion, and are not at all familiar with the points I am trying to make. Perhaps you would do better to support my patience - I have not spoken an angry word to anyone, despite the fact that my points are not examined, only the lenght of my posts challenged. Again, Sir/Madam, it often takes a great many words to express a simple point. Despite the fact that writers, such as MEIMEI, do not see the naivity of their own support of "hacking" (a crime in China) as JUSICE FOR A CRIME; despite this 'blindness' to reality, a blindness which causes many writers to not see that I am speaking of very simple matters, I have spoken quite patiently. Is it my duty and responsibility to try and speak about the RULE OF LAW? My Chinese wife thinks it is; the best and brightest of Chinese thinkers believe it is. THis matter of Mr. Hale has become a trail by media . . all hope of finding "credible facts disappeared a long time ago. Gossip and polictics (foreginers vs Chinese ) has prevailed this disccussion . . . that is a shame . . . and a result of the fact that there is no trust in the police or courts in China, there is no RULE OF LAW in China. I think the discussion as it is, is degrading of us all, Sir/Madam, and we Westerners should no better then to get involved in gossip. There will be very littel of credible, factual materials coming from the case of Mr. Hale becasue te opportunity to deal with him properly has passed by, or didn't exist in the first place - becasue their is no RULE by LAW in China.
Jan 24, 2013 20:36 Report Abuse
Luckychina: If you listen to the new leader of China, XI Jinping, he is often talking about trying to clean up the justice system in China. Many leaders want this. However, many Chinese, like MeiMei, they don't seem to even want to talk about the real issue. It will take time for China to accept the RULE of LAW. Bunt untilChina does accept the RULE of LAW, normal citizens, like MeiMei, will cntinue to mistrust their own police and justice system and they will continue to make BIG DISCUSSIONS about the stupid behavior of one man because they think this is the only way to deal with people like Mr. Hale.
Jan 23, 2013 21:25 Report Abuse
LUCKYCHINA, GOOD QUESTION. You need to be constantly talking to your govenment workers about the RULE of LAW.ANd talk to your friends, talk about it online, talk abou it at work. DOn't argue or fight. Don't get angry, just talk. The best thinkers in China, Lucky china, they want to have RULE OF LAW . . . but for many CHinese people talking about this becomes a political and cultural issue. And, I am sorry to say, many Chinese people are not prepard to discuss issues like THE RULE OF LAW - you see how angry MeiMei has gotten with me. Many Chinese people think that, when I speak about the RULE of LAW in China, I am trying to make CHina like my country. NO, NO, NO!. I simply want people in China, and that includes Chinese police and leaders, to obey Chinese laws . . . making this happen, begins with normal citizens: don't cross the street when the light is red; drive carefully; talk to your governement leaders when you find laws that contradict each other. Don't get angry, just talk abd be patient.
Jan 23, 2013 21:24 Report Abuse
Meimei find out Mr Hale paid money to Police for fine (mmm fine is that what they call it?) and that is why the let him go. Meimei hope police can have nice holidays now. There seems to be some justice in the world though, Mr Hales websites have been hacked by what appear to me Muslim extremists a couple of days ago. Maybe they took offence to the forum posting that Mr Scott Murphy made about all Muslims being bad and the Middle east should be nuked and turned into a carpark? This extremely offensive comment was allowed to pass by Mr Hale webmaster. This all very clear to Meimei, hope is to others to.
Jan 23, 2013 20:38 Report Abuse
MEIMEI Wrote: "There seems to be some justice in the world though, Mr Hales websites have been hacked by what appear to me Muslim extremists a couple of days ago." MeiMei - you don't seem to see your own confusion. You are agreeing with one CRIME, the crime of Hacking, BUT you are angry about Mr. Hale's Crime . . . do you see my point . . .. If your country does not accept the RULE of LAW, normal citizens like yourself will continue to make confusing judgements like this, normal citizens like yourself will continue to mistrust your own police and justice system and you will look for other ways to punish people, Foreigners and Chinese
Jan 23, 2013 20:53 Report Abuse
MEIME, would you prefer that "Muslim Extremist" handle justice inChina. Don't you think it would be better if normal citizens like yourself worked hard to accpet the RULE OF LAW in China. And then normal citizens, like you MeiMei, would trust your police and your justice system and you would not spend so much time talking about one incident. Can't you see MeiMei, that no matter if this is a big issue or a small issue, the incident involving MR. Hale becomes a BIG DISCUSSION because no one trusts the police and tHe justice system in CHina. That is why I have tried to hard to explain to you what RULE OF LAW really means.
Jan 23, 2013 21:03 Report Abuse
MEIMEI WROTE: "Meimei find out Mr Hale paid money to Police for fine (mmm fine is that what they call it?) and that is why the let him go" DON'T YOU SEE, MEIMEI, YOU TOO DO NOT TRUST YOUR OWN POLICE AND THIS IS WHY THIS INCIDENT INVOLVING MR. HALE BECOMES A BIG DISCUSSION. The incident involving Mr. Hale becomes a Big Issue because China does not accept the Rule of Law. If your country accepted the RULE OF LAW, you would be able to spend your time discussing other matters and not making a BIG DISCUSSION over something that, in many other countries, people would let the police handle.
Jan 23, 2013 21:06 Report Abuse
Yes, we take too much time to have big discussions about one incident and not about real issues. We need to take enough time on big issues and less time on one man like Mr. Hale. But how do we have RULE OF LAW in China?
Jan 23, 2013 21:10 Report Abuse
AIRING OUR DIRTY LAUNDRY IN PUBLIC . . . . . . .. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-01/14/content_16115799.htm. . . . . . . mEImEI . . . I read some of the post on http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-01/14/content_16115799.htm. yUK, YUK, YUK . . . my my, but the exaggerated, language. My, my but there are peopleon ther etalking about how Mr. Hae invited them back to his home. YUK, YUK, YUK. I mean, MR. Hale, YUK . . . but it is also a bit disgusting to see people writing about this online. BUT YOU SEE, MEIMEI, I UNDERSTAND why many Chinese feel they need to do this here in China. YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND, why we don't normally do this in countries that accept the RULE OF LAW. In a country that accepted the RULE OF LAW, e would let the police and the courts deal with Mr. Hale. I mean, really, MeiMei, let's try to understand each other here. Don't you think it is a bit . . .oh . . .I don't know . . . a bit 'un-lady-like' and 'ungentlemanly' and sort of immature for people to talk about the negative personal details of their life on open discssion sites like this? Don't you think it is a bit 'un-cultured' for people to be discussing such personal matters online? Don't you think it would be better if the police and the justice system in China were more mature, more modern? And don't you think it would be better to use your energy to improve the police ad justice systems in China, then every SMALL or BIG issue would not become such a BIG DISCUSSION.
Jan 23, 2013 21:33 Report Abuse
WHEN PEOPLE AIR THEIR DIRTY LAUDRY IN PUBLIC this does not make something a BIG ISSUE. Many of the people on the website http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-01/14/content_16115799.htm. are really just airing their dirty laundry. My advice is that these people put more energy into improving police and justice systems in China and then they might not speak about the embarrassing details of their life on open discussion sites.
Jan 23, 2013 21:36 Report Abuse
Hahahah . . . but we like to put our laundry in public in China. Just a joke.
Jan 23, 2013 21:39 Report Abuse
Yes, very funny Luckychina . . . but clean laundrry is different than "dirty laundry."
Jan 23, 2013 21:40 Report Abuse
This will not happen for a long time; I agree with the posts that you do post that are a respectable size and not too saturated. For someone that is not a native speaker, even a native speaker of English, you do tend to ramble on a bit and therefor someone like 'meimei,' or myself for that matter, doesn't understand what you are saying because you don't consolidate your messages. I don't come on here to read a novel. You just need to edit what you write so that people actually read it.
Jan 23, 2013 23:07 Report Abuse
I understand your point . . . and thank you for being patient enough to read . . . as I mentioned previously: in our modern world, filed with politics and focus on "culture" it can be very difficult to make a simple point.
Jan 24, 2013 21:09 Report Abuse
I don't believe I am rambling - but of course I am the one writing so would say that. Itake your point. The thing is, Lago, my essential goal is that folks like yourself (you are a westerner I assume) see the simplicity of what I am saying and in this way as a group we can help the Chinese see through individual incidents of bad behavior or chrime and focus on the big issues.
Jan 24, 2013 21:12 Report Abuse
The problem, though, Lago, as I see it is that most westerns smirk and laugh when I suggest that we have a duty to hep China develop. earlier I received this post " Guest7816 (0)(0) I am visualizing the scene in the movie Airplane 2 where everyone is committing suicide after enduring the long sad tale over and over again. You just don't get it do you? You are responsible for all this upholding you say? Why, when I signed for my visa, did I not get the memo? Should I thank you for this? Yet, you have offered no credible information about this individual or this case. I guess you are in love with repetitive writing. Well.... more power to you if thats what you love to do. I, personally, am going to go paint a house."
Jan 24, 2013 21:13 Report Abuse
WE ALL SIGNED THE "MEMO." The person who wrote this post was trying to be clever, I assume . . . but what they seemed to miss is that, in fact, every foreigner and ever foreign business in China did get the "memo". WE ALL SIGNED THE "MEMO". We are all here, if we are working, as "Foreign Experts" . . . which means we are here as part of China's plans . . . it is only a hppy coincidence that our plans coincide with China's plans for us. One of the reasons I feel the need to write so much, what might seem like rambling to you . . . is becasue most people posting here oare not focusing on the simple facts, on the simple reality. Now, it is not my duty to help everyone do this. But we each use our skills . . . and I have spent a lifetime learning logic, science, and the law . . . I am simple using the skills I have.
Jan 24, 2013 21:17 Report Abuse
I understand that folks like MeiMei do not really follow my points . . . I surely could use the assistance of people like youself, Lago. Rather then contending with the emotional comments I have received about the length of my posts, I would apprciate some patience and diligence from you folks. I have clearly, repeatedly asked for your asistace. I have repeated, explained why making simple points is so complex in our modern world. Just take a moment and read carefully before jumping to conclusions and agreeing, as you have, that my post are mere "Harry Potter" novels. How does that approach, Lagos, help anyone?
Jan 24, 2013 21:21 Report Abuse
One of the simple points I have tried to make is that it may be a huge waste of intellect, waste of time - and an embarrassment to all of us, that matters like Mr. Hale's behaviour are handled in CHina as they are - handled this way because peple in China do not trust their police and courts, handled this wayin China becasue there is no RULE OF LAW. But how do I make that point to Chinesenetizens if you westerners don't see the waste?
Jan 24, 2013 21:26 Report Abuse
From "SOAPBOx" host - Stephen Ranford - as reported on ICS TV. Here is an interesting example of time wasted because China does not accept the RULE OF LAW. A few years ago, someone created a web site in China so that anyone who thought they saw a kidnapped child on the street could take a photo and post it to the website. Now, that might be a useful, additional method in the West. But here in China this was hailed a wonderful, and primary, solution to the problem of KIDNAPPED Children. But as the host of ICS, "Soapbox" said . . . "why not just go to the nearest police officer and get him/her to do their job?"
Jan 24, 2013 21:26 Report Abuse
IF China accepted the RULE of LAW this matter would be dealt with properly by the police and the courts and normal citizens would not have to make a BIG DISCUSSION about it on the internet. That is the REAL issue here. WHY DOES SUCH AN INCIDENT, involving one man, BECOME A BIG DISCUSSION HERE IN CHINA? It become a big issue because China does not accept the rule of law and so normal citizens, foreigners and CHinese do not trus that the matter will be dealt with properly. I HOPE THAT IS CLEAR TO YOU NOW, MEIMEI.
Jan 23, 2013 20:21 Report Abuse
I am here, in China, as part of China's OPENING UP AND REFORM POLICY. And it is my duty to try and help you understand that the real issue here is that China does not accept the RULE OF LAW. Because Chinese people are not familiar with the RULE OF LAW incidents such as this man's stupid behavior become BIG DISCUSSIONS. MeiMei, you are not focusing on the real issue. I understand that. You do not, that is why I am trying to help you see the real issue, the real issue is Chinese people distrust their own police and justice system becasue China does not accept the RULE of LAW.
Jan 23, 2013 20:19 Report Abuse
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